May 17 2008, 4:08 pm - Replied by: RandPhoenix

And the sheep are those whom God has foreordained to believe before the foundations of the earth.

May 18 2008, 9:37 pm - Replied by: endtimesProphet

RandPhoenix wrote: Thank you.  I appreciate your efforts.  I think you're missing something about the John 10 passage.  Note in 26 that Jesus says that the Jews did not believe.  Why?  Because they were not His sheep.  Note that He does NOT say why they are not His sheep.  He says they do not believe because they are not His sheep.  This seems to show that it is their condition that defines their faith, not the other way around.  Their condition (not sheep) is what causes them to have disbelief.  Now, if what you are saying is true, it should be reversed.  It should be that they are not sheep BECAUSE they do not believe, not that they do not believe BECAUSE they are not sheep. The Greek for "because" is gar, which indicates a causative thing.   This really destroys your whole argument.   Now, one more line of reasoning.  Might I ask you what Jesus ACTUALLY accomplished on the cross?  Romans 3:25 states that Jesus was a propitiation.  That means a satisfaction of wrath.  An atonement, yes?  Now, the problem with your position is that if Jesus truly satisfied the wrath of God for those who would believe, then how can God show wrath to those who are in Christ? God would be unjust to punish those whose punishment has already been paid.  That is why the "It is finished" is τελέω, which means "to fill, to complete, to end."  The punishment or transaction is complete.  This refers not back to prophecy as some have said, but back to John's statement that Christ is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." Now, you may say that sure, Christ takes the punishment for those who are in Him, but what about those who backslide?   A true Christian will not backslide. (1Jn 2:19)  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us. See?

I dont see that you have a argument vs27 plainly states that his sheep follow him If one does not follow they are not his sheep."The Jews as a whole didnt some did but they werent his sheep only those who do follow him presently are.Those who were believing right then were his sheep and those who are believing right now are his sheep.If one is not obedient they fall into unbelief and they are no longer believing nor have or are in the faith.
The Jews were Born again by faith unto righteousness looking to the Cross we are born again by faith unto righteousness looking back to the cross.The Jews were at some time his sheep but strayed away and stopped following him.By not following him they were lost sheep they followed another sheppard Satan same as today those who stop following him are lost sheep.

I cannot see anywhere that the word propitiation means satisfaction of wrath but rather strongs-

hilasterion, hil-as-tay'-ree-on; neuter of a derivative of Greek 2433 (hilaskomai); an expiatory (place or thing), i.e. (concretely) an atoning victim, or (special) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple) :- mercyseat, propitiation.
Jesus came to make atonement for our sins yes that is true but that has nothing to do with what we do with what he has freely given us and everyone else from Adams time till now.
Those who are in Christ or those who are Abrahams seed are those who have been born again and are presently believing right now.No one else is his sheep.

Galatians 3:7 (KJV)

 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.  Faith again the present particle of the Greek those who are presently in the faith are the Children of Abraham.
Romans 8:1-2 (KJV) 
    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Those who walk in the Spirit are in Christ and have no condemnation but if one walks in the flesh they are not his but are walking in the flesh  Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV) 
    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Yes says shall not

So if we walk in the spirit "Holy Spirit not demon spirits"The law of sin and death has no hold on us but if we walk in the Flesh "Galatians 5:19-21"

Those who walk in the Spirit are in Christ and have no condemnation but if one walks in the flesh they are not 

Romans 8:[2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 
If one walks in the spirit then the Law of sin and death has no power over them but if they are disobedient then they will be judged by the Law of sin and death as we see in
 1 Tim. 1:9 (KJV) 
    Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Now the wages of sin is death Jesus has paid the price for all sin that one has repented of but not present nor future sins.God would be unjust to pay for future sins and nowhere in the word of God does it say of such.
The Blood of Christ was good enough for all sins as long as we repent of them.
It is finished is the fulfillment of what the priest would say just before the Lamb was slain.
Yes it is finished and all can have eternal life as long as we repent of all sins we commit.

 

May 19 2008, 12:37 am - Replied by: RandPhoenix

Way to not answer my objection at all.

May 19 2008, 6:56 pm - Replied by: endtimesProphet

RandPhoenix wrote: Way to not answer my objection at all.

I answered your quwstions.
I would like to state this It dont matter if they were or ever had been his sheep. The fact is he said his sheep follow him and those are the ones who have eternal life.
The fact is as well that faith is in the present tense not the past so you have no argument.

I have got to go to Fl. for an End time Salvation,healing ,deliverance and Miracle Revival so I will reply in a few weeks.

Be Blessed.

Jun 05 2008, 8:14 am - Replied by: endtimesProphet

RandPhoenix wrote: And the sheep are those whom God has foreordained to believe before the foundations of the earth.

God has no respect of persons . God knows who will obey and follow him and who are his sheep. So If you arent obeying his word then you arent his sheep or in your words you are not one that was foreordained to believe"presently" before the foundation of the world.

Jun 09 2008, 10:12 am - Replied by: Explicit_Faith

So close, so close you can almost see it!

I wasnt going to get back into this one but I felt strongly led so here goes.

Do you know what this "foundation of the world" is that you speak of? This is the Katabole, translated into english foundation. However, lets look at the greek.

G2602

καταβολή

katabolē

kat-ab-ol-ay'

From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.

We are referred back to the prime root of the word G2598.

G2598

καταβάλλω

kataballō

kat-ab-al'-lo

From G2596 and G906; to throw down: - cast down, lay.

Foundation of the world refers to the casting down or overthrow, of who? Satan.
Satan rebelled against God and he drew a third of all of God's children with him (Revelation 12:4). When did this happen? Before the creation as given beginning with verse 2 in Genesis 1.
We all know the beginning of the Bible.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The word was in the Hebrew is very clear. The word should have been translated into english "became".

Now lets read it as it should have been translated from the Hebrew.

Gen 1:2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:1 tells us that in the beginning God created the heavens and earth. It does not tell us when. Something happened after the creation that caused God to destroy the earth (katabole) and then we have the rest of the creation story. Wow, all of a sudden this throws the rediculous church/science argument as to the dinosaurs right out of the window! Want another witness? Check out Isaiah.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

This word vain is the same Hebrew word from Genesis 1:2 translated without form.

God didnt create the world empty. He created it beautiful and perfect. But satan fell to his own pide and caused 1/3 of God's children to follow him. God could have destroyed 1/3 of His children but He decided to re-make the world and have us each born in the flesh without memory of what had happened so that we may each choose whether we would follow Him or satan.

Didnt you ever wonder who God was talking to on the 6th day when He said let us make man in OUR image? We are with the Father until it is time for our soul to be put into the flesh. At death our soul immediately returns to the Father that gave it! Ecclesiastes 12:6-7

Want to know more about this fall of satan. Refer to Ezekiel 28 where God Himself tells us the story. At the start of the chapter satan had already been demoted and is called the prince of tyrus. Beginning with Ezekiel 28:12 we learn from God how satan fell, how he was elevated to the protecting cherub and how pride was his downfall. Now when did that happen? At the foundation of the world.

Lets move to the sheep part of this discussion.

When satan rebelled there were those that stayed true and fought against him for God. This is the election. They have been pre-ordained and are the flock that Jesus speaks of in John 10. These are also the sheep that will take part in the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation. Do a study on elect with these thoughts in mind and it should be clear to you. Is God playing favorites? NO! The election have earned this for their part in the fight against satan during the katabole (foundation of the world). These are those that have pre-destination.

Jesus also speaks in John 10 about another flock in verse 16. These are the sheep of the second resurrection spoken of in Revelation. These are children that didnt take sides in the katabole but will chose God in the flesh over satan. These are those that have free-will.

The sheep that Jesus was speaking of that do NOT know His voice, translated JEWS in many places of the Bible, the word is

G2453

Ἰουδαῖος

Ioudaios

ee-oo-dah'-yos

From G2448 (in the sense of G2455 as a country); udaean, that is, belonging to Jehudah: - Jew (-ess), of Juda.

Note that this word can mean from the tribe of Judah (of one of the tribes that Jesus came through) or it can also mean from Judea. In other words people from the area of Judea (residents). You can be english by geneology or you can also be called english if you live in england, even if you are japeneese etc....

So who are these JEWS that get such a bad wrap throughout history? Let's have Gods word tell us.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

So who are these people that live in Judea, are called Jews in the english bible but are from the synagogue of satan? Jesus nails it in this verse!

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Who was the first murderer? Any 1st grade sunday school student knows that it was Cain.
These people are from Cain. They are the Kenites. The Kenites infiltrated the people of Israel and even were in the priesthood after the return from captivity of Babylon. They are listed here among other places.

1Ch 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

Lets look at the origin of Cain for a moment to get clearer understanding from God's word.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

The word touch in Hebrew as Eve used in verse 3 is

H5060

נגע

nâga‛

naw-gah'

A primitive root; properly to touch, that is, lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphemistically, to lie with a woman); by implication to reach (figuratively to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.): - beat, (X be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.

Yes, Eve was seduced by satan (the serpent) and conceived. Why do you think she covered herself with fig leaves afterwards. It WASNT her mouth she covered and she didnt eat any apple!

Paul gives another witness:

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Here is the greek for the word beguiled.

G1818

ἐξαπατάω

exapataō

ex-ap-at-ah'-o

From G1537 and G538; to seduce wholly: - beguile, deceive.

It means to wholly seduce. Lets go back to Genesis.

Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This is the first prophesy given in the Bible. What seed is God talking about? The seed of satan and the seed of Eve (Jesus Christ).

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Cain was the result of satan impregnating Eve. Why? To pollute the bloodline though which Christ would come. This was an attempt to foil God's plan. Eve also knew her husband Adam and conceived from him, Able. 2 pregnancies by 2 fathers. Twins, although not identical. They reached the age of accountability at the same time and offered their offerings to God. We know what happened then. Here is another tidbit.

Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

The word AGAIN in the Hebrew

H3254

יסף

yâsaph

yaw-saf'

A primitive root; to add or augment (often adverbially to continue to do a thing): - add, X again, X any more, X cease, X come more, + conceive again, continue, exceed, X further, X gather together, get more, give moreover, X henceforth, increase (more and more), join, X longer (bring, do, make, much, put), X (the, much, yet) more (and more), proceed (further), prolong, put, be [strong-] er, X yet, yield.

What does it mean if a woman continues in labor? Multiple births. Interesting how the birth of twins is utilized in God's word.

Take a look at the geneology of CAIN listed in Genesis 4.

Now take a look at the geneology of ADAM in Chapter 5. Note that Cain is NOT listed even though it is taught that he was the first born of Adam and Eve. Why? Adam is NOT his father. But even more interesting is the similiarity between the names of the lines of Cain and Adam. Cain (satans son) has always imitated the line through which Christ would come.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Want to make sure that it really was satan in the garden with Eve?

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

I pray that you will allow God's word to speak truth to you as you research these scriptures. Cast aside the traditions of men that make void the word of God and allow God's word to open your spiritual eyes so that you may see truth. Don't take my word for it as truth or discount it as false, but check it out for yourself with prayer for wisdom and understanding. May God bless  you!

Jun 10 2008, 7:13 am - Replied by: endtimesProphet

Explicit_Faith wrote: So close, so close you can almost see it! I wasnt going to get back into this one but I felt strongly led so here goes. Do you know what this "foundation of the world" is that you speak of? This is the Katabole, translated into english foundation. However, lets look at the greek. G2602 καταβολή katabolē kat-ab-ol-ay' From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation. We are referred back to the prime root of the word G2598. G2598 καταβάλλω kataballō kat-ab-al'-lo From G2596 and G906; to throw down: - cast down, lay. Foundation of the world refers to the casting down or overthrow, of who? Satan. Satan rebelled against God and he drew a third of all of God's children with him (Revelation 12:4). When did this happen? Before the creation as given beginning with verse 2 in Genesis 1. We all know the beginning of the Bible. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The word was in the Hebrew is very clear. The word should have been translated into english "became". Now lets read it as it should have been translated from the Hebrew. Gen 1:2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:1 tells us that in the beginning God created the heavens and earth. It does not tell us when. Something happened after the creation that caused God to destroy the earth (katabole) and then we have the rest of the creation story. Wow, all of a sudden this throws the rediculous church/science argument as to the dinosaurs right out of the window! Want another witness? Check out Isaiah. Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. This word vain is the same Hebrew word from Genesis 1:2 translated without form. God didnt create the world empty. He created it beautiful and perfect. But satan fell to his own pide and caused 1/3 of God's children to follow him. God could have destroyed 1/3 of His children but He decided to re-make the world and have us each born in the flesh without memory of what had happened so that we may each choose whether we would follow Him or satan. Didnt you ever wonder who God was talking to on the 6th day when He said let us make man in OUR image? We are with the Father until it is time for our soul to be put into the flesh. At death our soul immediately returns to the Father that gave it! Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Want to know more about this fall of satan. Refer to Ezekiel 28 where God Himself tells us the story. At the start of the chapter satan had already been demoted and is called the prince of tyrus. Beginning with Ezekiel 28:12 we learn from God how satan fell, how he was elevated to the protecting cherub and how pride was his downfall. Now when did that happen? At the foundation of the world. Lets move to the sheep part of this discussion. When satan rebelled there were those that stayed true and fought against him for God. This is the election. They have been pre-ordained and are the flock that Jesus speaks of in John 10. These are also the sheep that will take part in the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation. Do a study on elect with these thoughts in mind and it should be clear to you. Is God playing favorites? NO! The election have earned this for their part in the fight against satan during the katabole (foundation of the world). These are those that have pre-destination. Jesus also speaks in John 10 about another flock in verse 16. These are the sheep of the second resurrection spoken of in Revelation. These are children that didnt take sides in the katabole but will chose God in the flesh over satan. These are those that have free-will. The sheep that Jesus was speaking of that do NOT know His voice, translated JEWS in many places of the Bible, the word is G2453 Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios ee-oo-dah'-yos From G2448 (in the sense of G2455 as a country); udaean, that is, belonging to Jehudah: - Jew (-ess), of Juda. Note that this word can mean from the tribe of Judah (of one of the tribes that Jesus came through) or it can also mean from Judea. In other words people from the area of Judea (residents). You can be english by geneology or you can also be called english if you live in england, even if you are japeneese etc.... So who are these JEWS that get such a bad wrap throughout history? Let's have Gods word tell us. Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. So who are these people that live in Judea, are called Jews in the english bible but are from the synagogue of satan? Jesus nails it in this verse! Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Who was the first murderer? Any 1st grade sunday school student knows that it was Cain. These people are from Cain. They are the Kenites. The Kenites infiltrated the people of Israel and even were in the priesthood after the return from captivity of Babylon. They are listed here among other places. 1Ch 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab. Lets look at the origin of Cain for a moment to get clearer understanding from God's word. Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. The word touch in Hebrew as Eve used in verse 3 is H5060 נגע nâga‛ naw-gah' A primitive root; properly to touch, that is, lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphemistically, to lie with a woman); by implication to reach (figuratively to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.): - beat, (X be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch. Yes, Eve was seduced by satan (the serpent) and conceived. Why do you think she covered herself with fig leaves afterwards. It WASNT her mouth she covered and she didnt eat any apple! Paul gives another witness: 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Here is the greek for the word beguiled. G1818 ἐξαπατάω exapataō ex-ap-at-ah'-o From G1537 and G538; to seduce wholly: - beguile, deceive. It means to wholly seduce. Lets go back to Genesis. Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. This is the first prophesy given in the Bible. What seed is God talking about? The seed of satan and the seed of Eve (Jesus Christ). Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Cain was the result of satan impregnating Eve. Why? To pollute the bloodline though which Christ would come. This was an attempt to foil God's plan. Eve also knew her husband Adam and conceived from him, Able. 2 pregnancies by 2 fathers. Twins, although not identical. They reached the age of accountability at the same time and offered their offerings to God. We know what happened then. Here is another tidbit. Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. The word AGAIN in the Hebrew H3254 יסף yâsaph yaw-saf' A primitive root; to add or augment (often adverbially to continue to do a thing): - add, X again, X any more, X cease, X come more, + conceive again, continue, exceed, X further, X gather together, get more, give moreover, X henceforth, increase (more and more), join, X longer (bring, do, make, much, put), X (the, much, yet) more (and more), proceed (further), prolong, put, be [strong-] er, X yet, yield. What does it mean if a woman continues in labor? Multiple births. Interesting how the birth of twins is utilized in God's word. Take a look at the geneology of CAIN listed in Genesis 4. Now take a look at the geneology of ADAM in Chapter 5. Note that Cain is NOT listed even though it is taught that he was the first born of Adam and Eve. Why? Adam is NOT his father. But even more interesting is the similiarity between the names of the lines of Cain and Adam. Cain (satans son) has always imitated the line through which Christ would come. 1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Want to make sure that it really was satan in the garden with Eve? Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. I pray that you will allow God's word to speak truth to you as you research these scriptures. Cast aside the traditions of men that make void the word of God and allow God's word to open your spiritual eyes so that you may see truth. Don't take my word for it as truth or discount it as false, but check it out for yourself with prayer for wisdom and understanding. May God bless  you!

Most of this I agree with but Cain isnt mentioned because he has nothing to do with the promised seed. Cain is not Satans son. God is saying all who dont receive him is Satans Children and all who obey Satan are hins sons as well.

Jun 10 2008, 8:50 am - Replied by: Explicit_Faith

endtimesProphet wrote: Most of this I agree with but Cain isnt mentioned because he has nothing to do with the promised seed. Cain is not Satans son. God is saying all who dont receive him is Satans Children and all who obey Satan are hins sons as well.

Ishmael isnt part of the line through which Christ would come and yet his line is mentioned in Abrahams lineage in Genesis 25 as his son. Also, the same could be said for Esau. Esau was not part of the line which Christ would come and yet his geneology was given in Genesis 36. The last verse of Genesis 35 clearly states that he was the son of Isaac.

For real, go back and look at the Hebrew and check the references that I gave. Dont just take my word for it but read it for yourself. I know this isnt something that is commonly taught. This was satans attempt to pollute the blood line through which Christ would come. Christ himself tells us in John 8:44 and again in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9. THESE ARE THE TARES. Remember the parable

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Christ then loved us enough He even told us exactly what this meant!

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Praise God for the simplicity through which He taught! Even a child can understand BUT you must cast off the traditions of men that make void the word of God!

Why would God tell Eve that He was going to multiply her sorrow and her CONCEPTION for eating fruit? Why would she continue in labor? Why would God put emnity between satans seed and the seed of the woman? The word is very clear. But if you discount truth here the rest of the bible will also be confusing to you. We need to understand what happened in the beginning to know whats going to happen at the end. Satan NEVER wanted Christ to come. Satan wanted to be Christ, he still does! He didnt want to guard the mercy seat, he wanted to sit on it!

His next recorded attempt ocurred in Genesis 6 when the fallen angels produced offspring with the daughters of Adam. In fact, satan ALMOST succeeded here since Noah and his family were the only ones found pure in the bloodline. Satan and these fallen angels most certainly did try to pollute the bloodline. Read Jude 1:4-6 for a second witness!

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5 Now I desire to put you in remembrance, though ye know all things once for all, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:6 And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

It was not in God's plan for angels (those in spiritual bodies) to reproduce with flesh. Noahs flood was sent to destroy these hybrid offspring. Satan attempted this a second time but it wasnt nearly as widespread.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Goliath should come to your mind. There are others listed as well. Forget about the traditions of men that are taught and let God's word speak to you in the loving simplicity that He sent it to us!

These are the words of Jesus! Use some common sense, who was a murderer in the beginning? Jesus loves us so much that He didnt want us to be ignorant about this

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Satan finally had Christ killed on the cross which was God's plan all along. Herod wasn't allowed to kill Him as a baby. The saduccess and pharisees (religious leaders by the way) that wanted to kill Him for a while werent allowed until the appropriate time. God is so just and fair. Satan had Christ killed on the cross and now God can fairly order satan into the lake of fire as his reward. This brings the first prophesy of the Bible given in Genesis 3:15 to pass.

I truly believe these words of Christ!

Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Jun 10 2008, 4:34 pm - Replied by: endtimesProphet

Explicit_Faith wrote: endtimesProphet wrote: Most of this I agree with but Cain isnt mentioned because he has nothing to do with the promised seed. Cain is not Satans son. God is saying all who dont receive him is Satans Children and all who obey Satan are hins sons as well. Ishmael isnt part of the line through which Christ would come and yet his line is mentioned in Abrahams lineage in Genesis 25 as his son. Also, the same could be said for Esau. Esau was not part of the line which Christ would come and yet his geneology was given in Genesis 36. The last verse of Genesis 35 clearly states that he was the son of Isaac. For real, go back and look at the Hebrew and check the references that I gave. Dont just take my word for it but read it for yourself. I know this isnt something that is commonly taught. This was satans attempt to pollute the blood line through which Christ would come. Christ himself tells us in John 8:44 and again in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9.

Both where part of the promise to Abraham. Cain was a normal man and was Adams son.Genesis 4:1-3 (KJV) And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. [2] And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. [3] And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. Adam was his Father Eve was his Mother and Abel was his Brother this argument is over.

Jun 11 2008, 1:10 am - Replied by: Explicit_Faith

endtimesProphet wrote: Both where part of the promise to Abraham. Cain was a normal man and was Adams son.Genesis 4:1-3 (KJV) And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. [2] And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. [3] And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. Adam was his Father Eve was his Mother and Abel was his Brother this argument is over.

Both were a part of the promise to Abraham? Your point was that Cain was not listed in Adams geneology because he wasnt the chosen line. Neither was Ishmael or Esau!

This is what God said

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

He was NOT talking about a snake

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

God said this BEFORE Genesis 4:1.

God KNEW that Eve had conceived when she partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (satan).

Why would He multiply her conception BEFORE she conceived with Adam?
Why would they DISCOVER their nakedness after partaking of the tree?
Why would they cover their private areas with fig leaves? They didnt cover their mouths!

The word AGAIN in verse 2 that you quoted means to CONTINUE. What happens when a woman CONTINUES in labor? Ask a doctor. While you are at it, ask a doctor if it is possible for a woman to be pregnant with twins from 2 fathers with 2 eggs. It is.

Your side of this discussion makes it impossible for Cain and Abel to be twins, yet you discount the fact that they approached the altar at the same time with their offerings when they reached the age of accountability!

I have presented many many witnesses to what was stated. Please go back and check the Hebrew! It will add clarity and understanding! Don't fall for the old "they ate an apple" theology!

Jesus references these decendants of Cain in John 8:44. Even in the english there is no doubt as to what He is saying


Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Here is ANOTHER witness for you

1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


They were BROTHERS alright, by the same MOTHER, but not the same father!

Why are all the other geneologies (which are so important) in the Bible given in completeness but Cain is not listed in Adams? Adam is NOT Cains father!

Try doing a study on the thorns and thistles that God speaks of in Genesis 3:18.

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

He is not just talking about briars and weeds. Do the study! Numbers 33:55 is a good place to start!

Num 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Want another one? How about the THORNS that choke out the seedlings in the parable of the sower? Think about it!

With the teachings that happen out there I know this is hard to grasp and accept. I studied this repeatedly in disbelief also when I first learned of this. However, even as a child, I knew that there was more to the story in the garden than was being taught to me. It was only after I put mans teachings aside and prayed and studied the word as God gave it to us before the beauty in His plan and the truth was revealed.

You MUST put aside the teachings of men and open your mind and spiritual eyes to the word of the Lord in order to gain understanding. Satan tried repeatedly in the Bible to eliminate Christ before He was even born. Then he tried to have Him killed as a baby. He was not allowed to kill Him before the time on the cross, which was God's plan.

Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.