May 15 2008, 7:49 pm - Replied by: RandPhoenix

....Look, I would be able to read what you wrote if you just wrote it plainly without all the crazy fonts and without the weird, random italicized stuff and without the random nonsense in it.  Oh, and grammar is nice too.  If you can't type correctly, people won't take you seriously.

May 16 2008, 6:54 am - Replied by: endtimesProphet

RandPhoenix wrote: ....Look, I would be able to read what you wrote if you just wrote it plainly without all the crazy fonts and without the weird, random italicized stuff and without the random nonsense in it.  Oh, and grammar is nice too.  If you can't type correctly, people won't take you seriously.

Again words.
Refute it or dont say anything. I know that you cannot.

May 16 2008, 8:34 am - Replied by: RandPhoenix

Whatever man.  It's not just words.  My eyes just cannot focus on a big, indentation-less block of text.  So EXCUSE me for my eyes not being perfect.

May 16 2008, 6:42 pm - Replied by: endtimesProphet

RandPhoenix wrote: Whatever man.  It's not just words.  My eyes just cannot focus on a big, indentation-less block of text.  So EXCUSE me for my eyes not being perfect.

I believe you can read it you just have excuses.
Yes It might be a little hard but you can .

May 16 2008, 11:07 pm - Replied by: RandPhoenix

Hey, man, if you asked me to write it a little more legibly I would.  I'm not asking much here.

May 17 2008, 8:01 am - Replied by: endtimesProphet

RandPhoenix wrote: Hey, man, if you asked me to write it a little more legibly I would.  I'm not asking much here.

[We can see as well that a  Key scripture is left out again in which would put things into context. We must examine Jn. 10:27 carefully to understand who "them" and "they" are in verse 28 and what the Lord was saying. It reads, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they FOLLOW me." This is the only type of person, the one that meets these conditions, that will "NEVER PERISH," according to vs 29. Lets look at ] 

John 10:27-29 (KJV)      My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

[Those that follow him or those that obey him hear his voice]

[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
[We can see with a small amount of scholarship, that this verse can be made so everyone can understand what it is saying .  First We must go to the Greek text, the hearing  ak-oo'-o; a primary verb; to hear (in various senses) :- give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), ([shall]) hear (-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand. present tense 

and following  ak-ol-oo-theh'-o; from Greek 1 (a) (as a particle of union) and keleuthos (a road); properly to be in the same way with, i.e. to accompany (specially as a disciple) :- follow, reach. present tense Both are in the present tense. So what does this mean? The truth is that only those who are hearing and following Jesus Christ right now are his sheep. "they follow me"? The word translated "follow" is a PRESENT INDICATIVE ACTIVE in the Greek, which asserts something which is occurring while the speaker is making the statement. In other words, as long as we remain faithful and CONTINUE to follow Jesus, He will, indeed, assure us that we will "never perish," v.28. No such promise, however, is given here (or anywhere in the Bible) to one that would turn and start "to follow Satan" as Paul knew could and did happen (1 Tim. 5:15)! It clearly does NOT cover such. Some read into Jn. 10:28  the words, "under any circumstance" after the words "never perish," but they are NOT there! Jesus did NOT include them in his promise and neither should we!The word is plain we see that sin separates us from that relationship with God in ]

Isaiah 59:2 (KJV) But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

[ Those that are living in a state of continual sin are not his sheep because they are neither hearing nor following Jesus. Nor can he hear them “unless they Repent” Who are secure? The sheep that are following his word. These cannot be snatched (taken away by force)? The sheep Who are being obedient to Jesus giving (present tense) have eternal life? Only those who are hearing and following right now! Whom do Jesus and the Father protect in their hands? Not the one that heard and followed for a period of time such was the case with many of his disciples,]

John 6:66 (KJV) From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked  no more with him
 
[We must ask ourselves Who are Jesus Disciples. Jesus says ]

John 8:31 (KJV) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;      

   [ So only those who are actively believing now with an obedient faith. Is this not works? No! It is genuine faith! This is true biblical security.     The term "snatch" means  har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of Greek 138 (haireomai); to seize (in various applications) :- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).  This promise guarantees that the devil cannot remove the believer which is  (present tense) from the hand of God. This safety is only from forces outside the believer and God Himself. A backslider removes himself from the promises of safety and security. He is not removed against his own will.      Now, looking at this passage in its plain and obvious meaning, it renders no credence to the theory of UES. Another chief pillar of this doctrine has been destroyed! Now lets go to the remaining pillars that  groan under the weight to save this failed doctrine.  Also-This scripture don’t say that we cannot walk away from that hand?] 

May 17 2008, 10:17 am - Replied by: RandPhoenix

Thank you.  I appreciate your efforts. 

I think you're missing something about the John 10 passage.  Note in 26 that Jesus says that the Jews did not believe.  Why?  Because they were not His sheep.  Note that He does NOT say why they are not His sheep.  He says they do not believe because they are not His sheep. 

This seems to show that it is their condition that defines their faith, not the other way around.  Their condition (not sheep) is what causes them to have disbelief.  Now, if what you are saying is true, it should be reversed.  It should be that they are not sheep BECAUSE they do not believe, not that they do not believe BECAUSE they are not sheep.

The Greek for "because" is gar, which indicates a causative thing.  

This really destroys your whole argument.  

Now, one more line of reasoning.  Might I ask you what Jesus ACTUALLY accomplished on the cross?  Romans 3:25 states that Jesus was a propitiation.  That means a satisfaction of wrath.  An atonement, yes?  Now, the problem with your position is that if Jesus truly satisfied the wrath of God for those who would believe, then how can God show wrath to those who are in Christ? God would be unjust to punish those whose punishment has already been paid.  That is why the "It is finished" is τελέω, which means "to fill, to complete, to end."  The punishment or transaction is complete.  This refers not back to prophecy as some have said, but back to John's statement that Christ is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

Now, you may say that sure, Christ takes the punishment for those who are in Him, but what about those who backslide?  

A true Christian will not backslide. (1Jn 2:19)  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

See? 

May 17 2008, 11:57 am - Replied by: Explicit_Faith

I agree that Christ was a propitiation and I also agree with your statements that it was the finality of the contract.

Christ DID teach on the cross and He DID refer to Psalm 22 and recited the Psalm while hanging on the cross so that those around would know that they were witnessing prophesy LIVE and IN PERSON.

As with MANY teachings in the Bible, there are various levels of  understanding. You may read a passage or chapter once and gain something from it. You may continue in your studies and read that same chapter later and come up with an entirely deeper teaching from the same words. This is part of the beauty of the word of God. As you walk with the Lord and are blessed with truth, deeper meanings are often revealed. Ever hear of the word being referred to as milk and meat. What does a baby eat? Milk. What does a baby Christian eat from the word? Milk (salvation, fundamentals of Christianity). So what is meat? Deeper truths. The 12 yr old girl that Jesus brought back from the dead. Obviously her parents were going to tell her she was brought back right? We can assume that the miracle made her and her parents believers. So what did Jesus tell her parents. GIVE HER MEAT! I dont think He was talking about a lambchop.

While I fully believe that there is a reason to preach salvation in church as there is sure to be a few visitors or interested people attending services. How many times have you been in church, seen the exact same people (that we can assume are Christians) sitting in the same seats in the pews week after week, and they are fed a salvation message? Where is the meat? Feed the sheep and they will come! God himself states that His children are destroyed from lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6). Anyone that has read Revelation knows that there will be famines right? Do you really know what is being said? Check out Amos 8:11.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

When meat is not given and only milk, you will only have baby Christians who aren't knowledgable enough to stand up to the devices of satan and they will be deceived.
Older Christians that accepted Christ years ago are starving for truth.

Paul himself wrote text that has 3 levels of understanding, although many are unable to grasp the deeper truths. Why? Because it takes diligence in study and prayer for wisdom. Someone that picks up the Bible once a week at church and reads a handful of verses will take many lifetimes to complete the entire Bible that way.

The temptation of Christ in the wilderness gives us a PERFECT example of how satan operates. Jesus is the Son of God. We KNOW that He is more powerful than satan. satan was created wiser than Daniel (Ezekiel 28) and should know that Christ is more powerful. The temptation was given as an example for us. How did satan tempt? WITH SCRIPTURE. satan quoted scripture but gave it just a slight twist. How did Christ respond? With SCRIPTURE! Now, how is someone that only reads a few verses a week and then has a man tell them what those verses mean going to be able to survive an attack using scripture with a twist as satan uses? They wont! In their own laziness and ignorance they will be snared.

Ok I went a little off topic but felt led to go there.

Now to the identity of those that are not of the flock. Want a clue as to who these people really are? Check out John 8:44, their identity is given. Actually, Jesus teaches much truth in that dialogue and I recommend reading it as HE stated WITHOUT bias as to what MAN thinks Jesus said.

May God grant wisdom in truth through His words.

May 17 2008, 12:08 pm - Replied by: Explicit_Faith

Many know that when the word "jews" is used in the english Bible that it is referring to the tribe of Judah. In the greek the word is Iouda. It also means someone that lives in Judea. Just because it uses the word Jew does NOT necessarily mean someone from the tribe of Judah, it can also mean someone from that part of the country. Just as your anscestry may make you German but you live in Texas so you are also a Texan. This is a VERY important fact to keep in mind when studying. The tribe of Judah (jews) get slammed pretty hard with hatred from a large chunk of the world and some of this is due to how they are interpreted from the Bible. Wonder who would have motive to want the world to hate the King line (tribe of Judah or Jews)? Wonder who is the author of confusion (king of babylon) and would want the Jews to be hated? Hmmmmm .....

May 17 2008, 4:06 pm - Replied by: RandPhoenix

That was nowhere near the point of what I was saying.  And it was to the Pharisees that Jesus was talking in John 10 anyways.  No Goyim were Pharisees.